This conversation was had at a post on the livejournal community, scans_daily and is reproduced with wllw's permission.
Two Fans React to the Dismissal of Harley as a: "Punching
Bag/Sperm Collector"
PrincesseBee
One thing Joker is really all about is complex psychological manipulation and power trips.
Given the level to which he engages in the relationship with Harley and demonstrates affection (not normal, or healthy, but still there)he most definitely doesn't see her as faceless, or as simply an outlet. The whole point is she is OUTSIDE the norm. Simply by living and surviving around him as long as she has indicates he considers her more than one of the 'lemmings'.
Harley also demonstrates awareness and consensual participation in the more hardcore aspects of the relationship. She is NOT just a victim. That's just insulting to the character who has frequently demonstrated high intelligence and astuteness.
Even if you take the stance he is incapable of truly loving her, regarding her as nothing is simply too unsophisticated for the Joker when you consider the time and effort he put into manipulating her and driving her bonkers and the spectacular result it had in the creation of Harley Quinn. It's a fine piece of work, and he'd be proud of it.
Wllw
So much agreed. I don't like the idea that the Joker showing affection or even recognition somehow validates their relationship as anything less unhealthy and dysfunctional than it is. Joker can be very affectionate towards Harley in his own particular way, in both the comics and the cartoon, that's part of what makes the relationship so very twisted. If it were just some guy constantly hurting a poor little misguided girl who loves him, it wouldn't be half as interesting.
PrincesseBee
So much motto. Joker is such a mercurial guy and so unpredictable, I can easily see him running the full gamult of emotional behaviour when it comes to Harley. Not least because he would *resent* the fact she gets what seems to be real emotion out of him.
As a fine fellow who goes by the name Jarec says (and I'm seriously paraphrasing here): "Joker loves Harley, but that's not the question. The question is whether that's a good thing for her and the answer is no. Having the Joker love you is just like having a shark love you. In both cases you are subject to the attentions of a creature without pity or empathy, who doesn't understand what it's feeling and whose default setting, if you will, is murder."
Wllw
"I can easily see him running the full gamult of emotional behaviour when it comes to Harley."
Indeed. And doesn't he already? He's constantly fawning over her and then hitting her a second later, only to completely forget about it the next scene. That's why I love the ending of Harlequinade so much. He welcomes her in his arms and they embrace sweetly— just after viciously trying to kill each other half a minute before. It's just so whimsical and twisted you can't help but laugh.
And I agree with Jarec too. Saying that Joker loves Harley doesn't suddenly make everything okay. This is a psychopathic murdering lunatic, having his attention in any way is NOT good. Batman will tell you a few things about that.
Didn't people read the Harley Quin one-shot? "I'm starting to care for you, and I can't stand those feelings, so I'm going to kill you, but I'll always remember you. HAHAHAHAHAHA!" Seriously.
PrincesseBee
People have such a blind spot when it comes to his affection and loving behaviour towards Harley - AND when it comes to Ivy's violent and abusive behaviour.
BOTH those relationships are abusive but one's okay because one is a hot girl.
And yeah, he loves her, he's affectionate towards her - but that does NOT make the abusive aspects okay. I do believe there is arguement for Harley being a masochist and for the two of them having an active D/s relationship, but clearly it's still very twisted and very messed up and there is nonconsensual abuse involved as well.
I'm tired of people saying having Joker show her affection or caring about her would 'validate' the relationship in the eyes of the readers. What about all the murder, terrorism, rape and mutilation that happens in comics? What about all the vigilantism and extreme 'heroics' that go on? By the same arguement, comics depicting those things are validating such behaviour. You can't have it both ways, people. You can't pretend to know one thing is fantasy and something else is not. You can't pretend to understand morals and ethics when it comes to murder or brutality and not when it comes to abuse. Yeesh.
The thing is, if this were HarleyxIvy, no matter how abusive that relationship truly is, no one would care.
I find the assertion that Harley is Joker's punching bag/sperm collector to be disgustingly misogynistic on the part of the person who said it. Joker's beyond misogyny, as he is beyond racism, homophobia and all other petty human concerns. He exploits such concerns for his own amusement; he doesn't experience them himself. Such an attitude is violently misogynistic towards Harley and a gross over-simplification of who Joker is and what he represents.
Wllw
Yes, there's a huge double standard for this sort of stuff. You can enjoy comics about the Joker killing people, but I've seen people saying that they liked Joker and Harley's relationship immediately get a defensive reaction from people accusing them of approving of abusive relationships. I guess it's just that society's a lot touchier about sex than it is about violence, which is a whole other rant in itself.
And motto on Ivy as well. It always boggles me to see people thinking that HarleyxIvy is a perfectly healthy, egalitarian relationship. Did they just miss the whole abuse/manipulation going on because they were too preoccupied ogling the pretty girls? Sure, it's a healthier than a relationship with the Joker, but so is stabbing yourself in the eyes with rusty spoons.
I guess what bothers me the most are the people constantly claiming that Harley should leave the Joker and go with Ivy. Yes, it makes perfect sense to say that for her sake she should leave a horribly dysfunctional and abusive relationship... to get into another one that's still pretty dysfunctional and abusive? Just admit that you think one pairing's hotter. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
I guess that a lot of people can't look past the abusive aspect of the relationship (because it's a MAN doing it), and don't get that there can be more to the relationship beneath the surface than "oh look he's hitting her he's such a bad guy". Harley's not a poor misguided lamb doing things out of love, she's a willing participant in the relationship, abusive as it is, and Joker's not just keeping her around because she's handy as a punching bag/sperm collector. He gets more from the relationship than that.
What would he even need a punching bag/sperm collector for? The whole world is his punching bag, and I can't see him as particularly concerned in finding pleasure in ways which involve sperm, not unless he also has an emotional investment in the act. (He's totally an equal opportunity psychopath.)
And add one to the list of subjects that bother me enough to rant about at length on the internet.
PrincesseBee
First paragraph - yep. I've been called a rape-enabler over this relationship! And so true on the sex thing. It's ridiculous.
Second paragraph - I'd say the only reason IvyxHarley is healthier is because it's not constant. Ivy's ALL about power, domination, control. Her talk about Harley standing up to Joker does not mean she wants Harley to stand up to her. If the relationship were full-time, I think we'd see an Ivy who was equally as abusive as Joker - and who wouldn't hesitate to use a little control-potion on Harley either, wheras Joker's content to use sheer psychological manipulation (which I'd argue is a harder feat then putting someone under a pheromone spell). Though I LOL'd hard at your last line. Very true!
I'm all for JokerxHarley so I don't want to see her leave him XD even though yes, it would be healthier for her overall. I think though that we see Harley is not truly content with normality. She gets a buzz and a thrill out of her life of crime. Joker's like a drug to her, he exacerbates the thrill, but Dini has emphasised a few times Harley wasn't a pure, innocent little thing to begin with and would probably have ended up a criminal one way or another.
Fourth paragraph - MOTTO MOTTO MOTTO. You speak truth and it is wise. I am so sick of people seeing only the superficial (not just in relation to this relationship, but whole other layers of complexity and sophistication in various media) because they have a knee-jerk reaction to it. It is CLEAR from the text we're given there's SO MUCH more to what's going on there.
I mean, Harley has killed people and done evil things herself. And has found it funny. Sure, she's got her sweet side, but that's not all she is. She has self-respect and she has ambition and determination. She was a gymnast for pity's sake!
Fifth - oh, motto again. Totally agreed. Another member of this community, zhinxy and I, have discussed this and we've agreed that though their sex life may be sporadic and infrequent, when it happens it's a huge production - and another key reason Harley can't leave him is because he's the best she's ever had. He's so perverse, has absolutely no limits, and has utter and absolute confidence in himself as well as loves to unravel people's minds and weild power over them. Combine that with a masochistic little subbie like Harley and the result is sheer dynamite.
Wllw
Rape enabler? Seriously? Hahahahaha. What's next, murder-enabler for liking the Joker? Clearly, we should start liking only the good, perfect, flawless characters and renounce our wicked ways. Or something.
So true on Ivy. I'd never actually thought about it, but using her control pheromones on Harley sounds like something she'd definitely do (and God forbid she hurt her plants!). She's a control freak on a level with the Joker. I always got the impression that she wanted Harley to free herself from Joker more because of female liberation (and because she wants her for herself) than an actual desire to see her stand up for herself. I mean, she definitely likes her, but she doesn't want her to stand up to her. So yeah, I can easily see a full time relation turning much more abusive than it already is.
I don't get how people get the idea that Harley's an innocent little thing led astray by the big bad Joker. He's definitely corrupted her, but she was not all that innocent and she was perfectly determined to get what she wanted at any cost even before meeting him. And we see her committing all her crimes quite willingly, and having fun while doing it. I guess people just see what they want to see.
And yeah, I can definitely see their sex life happening that way. I mean, the Joker is highly theatrical and a complete perfectionist, I can't see him being satisfied with anything other than the best. And what's better than an appreciative audience who thinks he's a god? Of course, it's also going to be sick and twisted and utterly warped, but that's most of the fun!
PrincesseBee
"I mean, the Joker is highly theatrical and a complete perfectionist, I can't see him being satisfied with anything other than the best."
Absolutely. It's what I don't get when people say he's too selfish to be a good lover to Harley... urhm... the guy is a TOTAL narcissist, perfectionist and power-tripper. It would be *beneath* him to not be perfect in every way, and furthermore, he'd totally head-trip over her adoration and blissful response to him.
"she was perfectly determined to get what she wanted at any cost even before meeting him."
Quoted for truth. Dini has made that abundantly clear and it was a deliberate choice on his part to illustrate the fact Harley was 'no angel' even before the Joker.
She also manipulates the Joker. I really wish we'd see more of that, because I think her goof-act is just that - an act. Sure, sometimes she goofs for real, other times she's manipulating response. When Joker transgresses the established boundaries of their relationship, she lashes back - VIOLENTLY. But she also plays him. Maybe he's aware of it and is letting her get away with it and maybe he isn't. I'd really like to see people do more with that though because it's intriguing, exciting and more complex.
Wllw
"It would be *beneath* him to not be perfect in every way, and furthermore, he'd totally head-trip over her adoration and blissful response to him."
Yes. Her slavish devotion plays a big part in Joker's reaction to Harley, and I'm surprised people sometimes seem to ignore it. Sure, very often he finds her annoying and frustrating, but just as often he'll happily bask in her adoration. He's a huge narcissist after all. And I'd imagine him getting off on her response to him more than any physical act.
And motto re: Harley manipulating Joker. I don't think her goofiness and naiveté is completely an act, but she's perfectly aware of it and how she can use it to her advantage.
I'd also like to see more of it, it's an aspect that hasn't been explored much. "The Code" was interesting in that regard, I thought.
PrincesseBee
One thing Joker is really all about is complex psychological manipulation and power trips.
Given the level to which he engages in the relationship with Harley and demonstrates affection (not normal, or healthy, but still there)he most definitely doesn't see her as faceless, or as simply an outlet. The whole point is she is OUTSIDE the norm. Simply by living and surviving around him as long as she has indicates he considers her more than one of the 'lemmings'.
Harley also demonstrates awareness and consensual participation in the more hardcore aspects of the relationship. She is NOT just a victim. That's just insulting to the character who has frequently demonstrated high intelligence and astuteness.
Even if you take the stance he is incapable of truly loving her, regarding her as nothing is simply too unsophisticated for the Joker when you consider the time and effort he put into manipulating her and driving her bonkers and the spectacular result it had in the creation of Harley Quinn. It's a fine piece of work, and he'd be proud of it.
Wllw
So much agreed. I don't like the idea that the Joker showing affection or even recognition somehow validates their relationship as anything less unhealthy and dysfunctional than it is. Joker can be very affectionate towards Harley in his own particular way, in both the comics and the cartoon, that's part of what makes the relationship so very twisted. If it were just some guy constantly hurting a poor little misguided girl who loves him, it wouldn't be half as interesting.
PrincesseBee
So much motto. Joker is such a mercurial guy and so unpredictable, I can easily see him running the full gamult of emotional behaviour when it comes to Harley. Not least because he would *resent* the fact she gets what seems to be real emotion out of him.
As a fine fellow who goes by the name Jarec says (and I'm seriously paraphrasing here): "Joker loves Harley, but that's not the question. The question is whether that's a good thing for her and the answer is no. Having the Joker love you is just like having a shark love you. In both cases you are subject to the attentions of a creature without pity or empathy, who doesn't understand what it's feeling and whose default setting, if you will, is murder."
Wllw
"I can easily see him running the full gamult of emotional behaviour when it comes to Harley."
Indeed. And doesn't he already? He's constantly fawning over her and then hitting her a second later, only to completely forget about it the next scene. That's why I love the ending of Harlequinade so much. He welcomes her in his arms and they embrace sweetly— just after viciously trying to kill each other half a minute before. It's just so whimsical and twisted you can't help but laugh.
And I agree with Jarec too. Saying that Joker loves Harley doesn't suddenly make everything okay. This is a psychopathic murdering lunatic, having his attention in any way is NOT good. Batman will tell you a few things about that.
Didn't people read the Harley Quin one-shot? "I'm starting to care for you, and I can't stand those feelings, so I'm going to kill you, but I'll always remember you. HAHAHAHAHAHA!" Seriously.
PrincesseBee
People have such a blind spot when it comes to his affection and loving behaviour towards Harley - AND when it comes to Ivy's violent and abusive behaviour.
BOTH those relationships are abusive but one's okay because one is a hot girl.
And yeah, he loves her, he's affectionate towards her - but that does NOT make the abusive aspects okay. I do believe there is arguement for Harley being a masochist and for the two of them having an active D/s relationship, but clearly it's still very twisted and very messed up and there is nonconsensual abuse involved as well.
I'm tired of people saying having Joker show her affection or caring about her would 'validate' the relationship in the eyes of the readers. What about all the murder, terrorism, rape and mutilation that happens in comics? What about all the vigilantism and extreme 'heroics' that go on? By the same arguement, comics depicting those things are validating such behaviour. You can't have it both ways, people. You can't pretend to know one thing is fantasy and something else is not. You can't pretend to understand morals and ethics when it comes to murder or brutality and not when it comes to abuse. Yeesh.
The thing is, if this were HarleyxIvy, no matter how abusive that relationship truly is, no one would care.
I find the assertion that Harley is Joker's punching bag/sperm collector to be disgustingly misogynistic on the part of the person who said it. Joker's beyond misogyny, as he is beyond racism, homophobia and all other petty human concerns. He exploits such concerns for his own amusement; he doesn't experience them himself. Such an attitude is violently misogynistic towards Harley and a gross over-simplification of who Joker is and what he represents.
Wllw
Yes, there's a huge double standard for this sort of stuff. You can enjoy comics about the Joker killing people, but I've seen people saying that they liked Joker and Harley's relationship immediately get a defensive reaction from people accusing them of approving of abusive relationships. I guess it's just that society's a lot touchier about sex than it is about violence, which is a whole other rant in itself.
And motto on Ivy as well. It always boggles me to see people thinking that HarleyxIvy is a perfectly healthy, egalitarian relationship. Did they just miss the whole abuse/manipulation going on because they were too preoccupied ogling the pretty girls? Sure, it's a healthier than a relationship with the Joker, but so is stabbing yourself in the eyes with rusty spoons.
I guess what bothers me the most are the people constantly claiming that Harley should leave the Joker and go with Ivy. Yes, it makes perfect sense to say that for her sake she should leave a horribly dysfunctional and abusive relationship... to get into another one that's still pretty dysfunctional and abusive? Just admit that you think one pairing's hotter. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
I guess that a lot of people can't look past the abusive aspect of the relationship (because it's a MAN doing it), and don't get that there can be more to the relationship beneath the surface than "oh look he's hitting her he's such a bad guy". Harley's not a poor misguided lamb doing things out of love, she's a willing participant in the relationship, abusive as it is, and Joker's not just keeping her around because she's handy as a punching bag/sperm collector. He gets more from the relationship than that.
What would he even need a punching bag/sperm collector for? The whole world is his punching bag, and I can't see him as particularly concerned in finding pleasure in ways which involve sperm, not unless he also has an emotional investment in the act. (He's totally an equal opportunity psychopath.)
And add one to the list of subjects that bother me enough to rant about at length on the internet.
PrincesseBee
First paragraph - yep. I've been called a rape-enabler over this relationship! And so true on the sex thing. It's ridiculous.
Second paragraph - I'd say the only reason IvyxHarley is healthier is because it's not constant. Ivy's ALL about power, domination, control. Her talk about Harley standing up to Joker does not mean she wants Harley to stand up to her. If the relationship were full-time, I think we'd see an Ivy who was equally as abusive as Joker - and who wouldn't hesitate to use a little control-potion on Harley either, wheras Joker's content to use sheer psychological manipulation (which I'd argue is a harder feat then putting someone under a pheromone spell). Though I LOL'd hard at your last line. Very true!
I'm all for JokerxHarley so I don't want to see her leave him XD even though yes, it would be healthier for her overall. I think though that we see Harley is not truly content with normality. She gets a buzz and a thrill out of her life of crime. Joker's like a drug to her, he exacerbates the thrill, but Dini has emphasised a few times Harley wasn't a pure, innocent little thing to begin with and would probably have ended up a criminal one way or another.
Fourth paragraph - MOTTO MOTTO MOTTO. You speak truth and it is wise. I am so sick of people seeing only the superficial (not just in relation to this relationship, but whole other layers of complexity and sophistication in various media) because they have a knee-jerk reaction to it. It is CLEAR from the text we're given there's SO MUCH more to what's going on there.
I mean, Harley has killed people and done evil things herself. And has found it funny. Sure, she's got her sweet side, but that's not all she is. She has self-respect and she has ambition and determination. She was a gymnast for pity's sake!
Fifth - oh, motto again. Totally agreed. Another member of this community, zhinxy and I, have discussed this and we've agreed that though their sex life may be sporadic and infrequent, when it happens it's a huge production - and another key reason Harley can't leave him is because he's the best she's ever had. He's so perverse, has absolutely no limits, and has utter and absolute confidence in himself as well as loves to unravel people's minds and weild power over them. Combine that with a masochistic little subbie like Harley and the result is sheer dynamite.
Wllw
Rape enabler? Seriously? Hahahahaha. What's next, murder-enabler for liking the Joker? Clearly, we should start liking only the good, perfect, flawless characters and renounce our wicked ways. Or something.
So true on Ivy. I'd never actually thought about it, but using her control pheromones on Harley sounds like something she'd definitely do (and God forbid she hurt her plants!). She's a control freak on a level with the Joker. I always got the impression that she wanted Harley to free herself from Joker more because of female liberation (and because she wants her for herself) than an actual desire to see her stand up for herself. I mean, she definitely likes her, but she doesn't want her to stand up to her. So yeah, I can easily see a full time relation turning much more abusive than it already is.
I don't get how people get the idea that Harley's an innocent little thing led astray by the big bad Joker. He's definitely corrupted her, but she was not all that innocent and she was perfectly determined to get what she wanted at any cost even before meeting him. And we see her committing all her crimes quite willingly, and having fun while doing it. I guess people just see what they want to see.
And yeah, I can definitely see their sex life happening that way. I mean, the Joker is highly theatrical and a complete perfectionist, I can't see him being satisfied with anything other than the best. And what's better than an appreciative audience who thinks he's a god? Of course, it's also going to be sick and twisted and utterly warped, but that's most of the fun!
PrincesseBee
"I mean, the Joker is highly theatrical and a complete perfectionist, I can't see him being satisfied with anything other than the best."
Absolutely. It's what I don't get when people say he's too selfish to be a good lover to Harley... urhm... the guy is a TOTAL narcissist, perfectionist and power-tripper. It would be *beneath* him to not be perfect in every way, and furthermore, he'd totally head-trip over her adoration and blissful response to him.
"she was perfectly determined to get what she wanted at any cost even before meeting him."
Quoted for truth. Dini has made that abundantly clear and it was a deliberate choice on his part to illustrate the fact Harley was 'no angel' even before the Joker.
She also manipulates the Joker. I really wish we'd see more of that, because I think her goof-act is just that - an act. Sure, sometimes she goofs for real, other times she's manipulating response. When Joker transgresses the established boundaries of their relationship, she lashes back - VIOLENTLY. But she also plays him. Maybe he's aware of it and is letting her get away with it and maybe he isn't. I'd really like to see people do more with that though because it's intriguing, exciting and more complex.
Wllw
"It would be *beneath* him to not be perfect in every way, and furthermore, he'd totally head-trip over her adoration and blissful response to him."
Yes. Her slavish devotion plays a big part in Joker's reaction to Harley, and I'm surprised people sometimes seem to ignore it. Sure, very often he finds her annoying and frustrating, but just as often he'll happily bask in her adoration. He's a huge narcissist after all. And I'd imagine him getting off on her response to him more than any physical act.
And motto re: Harley manipulating Joker. I don't think her goofiness and naiveté is completely an act, but she's perfectly aware of it and how she can use it to her advantage.
I'd also like to see more of it, it's an aspect that hasn't been explored much. "The Code" was interesting in that regard, I thought.